Wiki/Report of Meeting 2024-05-30
Report of Meeting 2024-05-30
Present: Ed Gottsman and Bob Therriault
Full transcripts of this meeting are now available below on this wiki page.
1) A quick review of the work that Jan Jacobs has done on creating a mapping of the categories using quantitative analysis. It is going well and is a process rather than a one-shot magic bullet. Step by step the results should leave us with a categorization that is grounded in the structure of the wiki. Ed has sent his list of J words he is using in J Viewer that should help Jan reduce the number of words he is analyzing.
2) Bob reviewed the work that he has done on the category presentation that will show up on the bottom of each content page on the wiki https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/HowNuVoc and between the content and the associated pages for category pages on the wiki https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Newcomers_N. The Introduction to NuVoc page is an exception because it is a content page that has been forwarded from a category page https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/HowNuVoc. The category map at the bottom of that page will need to be removed to avoid duplication when the category maps are added to the footers of the content pages. Bob will need to update previous category pages to provide useful information where the current space holders are located. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Archived_Pages_R.11 Ed wondered if the pages are laid out by hand. Bob replied that on the category pages the top content is done by hand, the category map and the attached pages are automatic. Highlighted categories are done by exchanging arguments in the template call. If the category tree were changed then that would involve some changes to the template page. https://code.jsoftware.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Wiki/Category_Tree_Template&action=edit This could change the display as the number of entries can change the placement in the map.
3) Ed has been working on the J Viewer and the current issue is that J9.6 stops during the download which is hard to debug. There are a few more things that he will try before contacting Henry, who had advised until beta 9 was released. Ed is using threads to do this, but that should not affect the process of downloading. There are not any problems with J9.5 using the J Viewer at this point.
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Transcript
Um, I guess I can't remember what I did the order of the
agenda, but one of the things will be the, the chat we had
with Jan about the categories and his SVG presentation and
just really to, I guess, for the record state that we did it.
And to me, anyway, it seems more like a process. It's not going
to be a magic bullet. But in the process of working back and
forth, we may end up coming into a nice space that way. And
that seems to be the way it's evolving. So as long as he's
willing to put that effort into it, I'm willing to go along with
that. And I think it's going along as expected. Any thoughts
about that? No, I think that's fair.
For my template stuff.
Let's see. Yeah, share.
It shouldn't be a big surprise or anything, because it's pretty
much what I was kind of hoping for. But
there we go.
Well, that's the homepage. So the thing about this is remember,
I was saying that I didn't have a way of putting the template
map at the bottom of a page. Yeah, I don't when it's
generated. So in other words, if there were pages attached to
this page, they would show up underneath this. Right. But this
information is all it's not generated. I've created it.
So again, because I've created this as a template, it will sit
below. So what ends up happening? So I'm on the
homepage. Now, if I click the notices, I'll go to the notice
page. And of course, now notices is highlighted on the notice
page. And I've done newcomers. And so newcomers is another one
that there's more information in there. But underneath it all,
again, you've got your map. And in this case, there are pages
attached. So they're down below. Yeah, yeah. So we'll have to
decide if we're okay with that. Yeah. And so that's, that's
going to end up for these category pages, that's going to
be the general look of them. The one thing I found interesting,
I was going through these, and I think I got all the way down to
the introduction to new VAC. And great, that's introduction
to new VAC. And that's wonderful. And everything. And
this is at the bottom of it. So that's good. Except that this
isn't a category page. What I've done is I've sent it to a
category page, which then is forwarded to this page, it's
already been done. I see. Now, what it means for this
particular page is, if we have Raul insert these templates into
the footer of the page, then this would be a page where this
would show up. And then below it, there would be another one
exactly the same. I see the one below it, I don't think would
have any way of highlighting. Sure. Because when you insert on
the footer, it's just taking that information and putting it
in, it's not returning it from the page it was clicked on.
Okay. So that's going to be one difference. And what I will
probably do is when we get this, these inserted to all the
footers, I will probably take this one out. And most people
won't even know the difference. But introduction to new new VAC
would no longer be highlighted, because I see you will go to
that page, you won't, but you'll end up forwarding to a page
that has this introduction to new book. Well, yeah, in fact,
it's not introduction to new book, the category, it's the
actual introduction to new book. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
All right. I think that's great, Bob. I think that's terrific.
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm pretty happy with it. The as I go to other
pages, the other ones that I've done down here, I did the wiki
pages. And they're kind of the same, except that as you can
see, the, I've got more information, it starts to look
more like a standard page with this at the bottom. The only
way you know, it's a category pages, there's pages attached to
it. Right, and you've got the highlight there. Right, right.
But I've also gone through the process of taking out those side.
They're not there anymore, because they don't need to be
there anymore. It's contained at the bottom. That's excellent.
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm pretty happy with it. The work I'm going to
end up having to do, I will just take a random page like this.
This will obviously be as it's updated, what will end up
happening here is I'm probably going to put a little bit more
information about this particular page, just to give a
general sense. And then right below that, between these pages
would be the map. Right, that's what you'll see on this, this
kind of a category page. So most of the category page pages, if
they're not sort of major subcategories, will have less
information at the top, it'll be a bit more obvious that they're
category pages. Right. Cool. Yeah. But that's, that's where I
am in that work. And so I'm happy with that. Yeah.
Yeah, you should be. Well, and thank you for your work helping
out with, with the look of that map, because I really am as I
use it more, I'm more and more happy with it.
Oh, I'm so glad. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's ideas are easy,
but actually getting it to work is a whole other, what is it 1%
inspiration, 99% perspiration? Yeah, I think that's the
percentage. That's been my experience. The difference
between ideation and implementation. Yeah, exactly.
Have you, are you at the stage still where these are hand
laid out? And are you happy with that? If the answer is yes,
that's perfectly okay with me. I'm really just curious.
Okay, so when you're referring to the category pages
themselves here, they are hand laid out. Of course, yeah.
Information down here is essentially, I've already put
the list of categories in and they're contained in a grid.
So that's, that's the nature of them. When I actually the how I
get them highlighted is on this page, when it calls the template
to be put into place. It's actually really kind of a cool
little simple thing. When I call the template, all I have to do
is give it an ID name. And that ID corresponds to the idea that
ID that's been given to each of the spots in the template.
And it says, if it gets this ID, highlight it with the red
circle. And that's how it does it. So that's, I mean, I do have
to go in and adjust the category page to do that. But once I've
done that, I don't, I don't have anything else to do.
Okay. And if a category were added somewhere in the middle of
the template, how would you handle that?
I'll go through to the template itself. It would just end up
getting, it would just be an entry in one of these here.
I see. Good.
So that, and here you can see where the, in the span of it,
because, because I found out that you can't, you can't, you
through, you have to do inline CSS to make the colors overcome
the highlight colors. Because they've got a link, they'll
default to that blue or whatever it is, unless you do it, a
span within, and that's where the ID is located too, which
makes it easy to add the circle around that information.
Right. Right. Oh, good.
Now where it would show up is right now, the, the categories
are kind of nicely grouped around, say I added a category
into newcomers, it would kick one of these guys probably to
the top of this column.
Yes, of course. So by accident, you've got a nice layout right
now, but it's not guaranteed to persist.
Well, by accident and honestly, I kind of created it that way
because I could, I could move things around so that I, well,
for two reasons, I wanted the reference below playground and
community and wiki at the back. And when I did that, it was
easier for me to line things up.
I see.
One other thing I may add is I actually may put a link into
this right into the J viewer page.
Because I think it would be easy to put either above notices
or below notices. And I think that would give it some more
prominence than it has currently.
All right. Well, that's great.
Yeah.
So that's my report on that so far. And we'll see where Jan
goes with, and thank you for sending that information along
to him for the J words.
Yeah.
Because I'm sure that'll help him.
Yeah.
And we'll see where he gets to from that.
Yeah. I'm curious too.
Yeah.
I think the next thing on the agenda was probably just the J
viewer and where you are with that.
So I downloaded a beta eight because Henry sent me a note
saying, try it with beta eight. And if it doesn't work, let me
know. And it doesn't work.
It doesn't work in a bad place.
It doesn't work when it is in a task downloading the database
file. It just goes off by itself.
And if you flip over to J5, 9.5, and you download the database
file, it comes right down.
Yeah.
And you go back to 9.6 and you're still waiting.
So that's great information for Henry.
Yeah. I'm going to see if I can't instrument the...
I'm going to dig a little more before I bug Henry.
Yeah.
But I do think even if you can finagle a fix on it, it's really
good information for him because having something split out that
way as a separate task and get lost, it'll come back to bite
him sometime.
Oh, absolutely. No question about it.
No, I'm not suggesting that I might fix it and keep quiet.
Yeah.
But if I can give him any more information before I ask him to
dig, I'd appreciate it.
He actually said something interesting.
Offhand, I don't have it in front of me.
The problem I was having before was J was freezing.
And actually, I'm still getting some freezes sometimes.
And he said that he can tell where a freeze happens.
So from this, I infer that he can go into the engine, go into
the interpreter and say, "What are you doing?"
Which is not an avenue that us mere mortals have.
I have often wished.
Other thing I'm kind of wondering, are you using threads
with this?
Yeah.
Tasks. Yeah.
Yeah.
So that you're actually using the capital T dot in this.
T dot.
So yeah, that should be something I think he'd be really
interested in.
Because if you send a task off and it doesn't come back.
That's right.
The question is, is it not coming back because there's
something funky with the task management?
Or is it not coming back because the file is taking forever
to come down for whatever reason?
It's not clear.
So as I say, I want to do a little more.
Like what I might try is forking off the task and not
downloading the file and just seeing whether it ever comes
back again.
Right.
That kind of thing.
Yeah.
I just sort of fork it off as a dummy.
See if it shows up.
Then that's not the issue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Huh.
Well, that's interesting.
And interesting that it's a change from 9.5.
Because I haven't heard a lot about any updates in 9.6
regarding the tasks.
I haven't.
I haven't looked.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I was just going by the stuff that he'd been putting in the
notes about the things that have been improved.
And I don't remember seeing anything specifically.
But there was a good thread in the forums at one point about
the tasks and somebody was trying to do stuff.
But that seemed to be somebody who hadn't been doing tasks
before, who was just trying it out.
I think I remember that.
Yeah.
There were people with experience that were kind of
filling the person on the gaps.
But.
And was he working in 9.6 beta?
Or was he working in 9.5?
No, I think he was working in 9.6.
Okay.
Which I thought was daring because.
If you're going to try and learn something, I'd go with the
more stable thing.
All right, well, I will see you next week and maybe we'll hear from Jan in the meantime.
Yeah, and I may rattle the bars on Raoul's cage and just see whether-
>> I miss Raoul.
>> Yeah, yeah.
Just see if he wants to come back to-
>> Yeah, cool.
Okay.
>> Okay, bye-bye.
>> Thanks.
Take care.
Goodbye.
>> You too.
Bye-bye.