Wiki/Report of Meeting 2023-07-13

Report of Meeting 2023-07-13

Present: Art Anger, Ed Gottsman, Dave Lambert and Bob Therriault

Full transcripts of this meeting are now available on the its wiki page. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Wiki/Report_of_Meeting_2023-07-13

1) Bob reported that the J primer revamping is complete for the first section. Revamped pages can be identified by an index of pages below the content. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Help/Primer/001Start_here Revamping the dictionary page involved substituting NuVoc as the current J reference instead of the J dictionary.

2) Ed told the story of his laptop's fatal interaction with pure Irish grain fed butter. Then there was a brief demo of the new interface of the J browser which is less hover based. Ed indicated that he was looking forward to hearing Stephen's reaction to it, as he feels it is 90% of the way to completion and may require a round of beta testing to finish off the rough edges involving interactions with different platforms. Graying out information that is not directly selected was suggested as a way to provide information pertinent to the search.

3) Bob draws a distinction between navigation by categorization, https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Special:CategoryTree?target=Category%3AHome&mode=categories&namespaces=&title=Special%3ACategoryTree which is what the original plan had been and navigation by interface, which is what Ed is providing. Ed pointed out that his interface relies on goo categorization as well, so it is more both than one or the other.

4) Dave spoke for a bit about challenges that his Unix box was facing in running the browser and he will provide Ed with details as soon as he has had a better chance to investigate.

5) Art thought that the new browser showed a lot of progress.

6) Bob talked about developing the Newcomers section https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Newcomers_N a bit more before switching to the new format. Finishing off the J Primer and providing an easier introduction to the information in NuVoc. The complete information would still be available through the Reference subtree. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Reference_R The Newcomers section may have more prominence by being near the top of the category section with Search and Bookmarks. Ed thought that more WD information could be positioned more prominently in the Developers section

7) Ed also talked about the benefits of the bookmarking section which would allow the user to easily customize the information by selecting links that they personally found most useful.

For access to previous meeting reports https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Wiki_Development

If you would like to participate in the development of the J wiki please contact us on the general forum and we will get you an invitation to the next J wiki meeting held on Thursdays at 23:00 (UTC) Next meeting is July 20th, 2023.

Transcript

It's certainly been a while since I've seen Art.

So it's great to see your Art and I hope things continue to go well for you.

It's good to see you back.

And other than that, the things I should have been working on, I got a little bit of progress on the J Primer I've been working on that to bring it up to speed.

Oh, there's Ed.

And we'll see whether he wants to come in and talk about the browser or I can talk about, well, I haven't done very much with the primer, so.

But the little bit that I've done, maybe I should just share my screen to show you if you haven't seen it, what I have done.

So you can see my screen now and it is, I know I've seen this before.

I haven't made much progress other than this, but what I've done is I've put an index on the bottom of all the pages that I've updated.

And I've got through to the first, completed the first section.

And there were some areas, like for instance, this one for the vocabulary, was referring to the old vocabulary.

So it was really out of date.

And I think if you were new to the language, you'd be very confused about what you were looking at.

And if you did manage to find the old vocabulary, it wasn't gonna be up to date anyway, because NUVOC is the up to date one now.

And so I've updated the text in that.

And then the other thing that I added was that I added this index so you can move around between pages.

So if I wanna go back in the primer, I just click on that.

Just click on that, did I click on it.

There we go.

And it just takes me back to that page.

And I can move back and forth through the pages just using the arrows, 'cause that's the way you're actually supposed to navigate the primer because it builds on stuff you've already input and stuff you've changed.

So if you jump around too much, you might screw up what you're working with.

But there is a nice thing about being able to go back and look at something that you know you've seen before and being able to see it.

And when you hover on these, it actually comes up with the name of the chapter so that you don't just have to go by the numbers.

The numbers are there to be able to fit, you know, the size of the index.

If you used words, it'd be way too wide.

So instead, I just got the numbers.

And when you hover, you can see what their actual chapter names are.

There was an issue with the length of time it was taking to hover.

And I looked into that, and it's actually a setting on the browser that you've got on.

So it's nothing I can actually control the person.

If it's taking a while for their tool tips to come up, that's a setting on their browser.

If they want tool tips to come up quicker, it's not something I can change for them.

Although I guess I could make a note that if it's taking too long for things to hover, you can change it with your, that's interesting.

I'm wondering why that's that way.

- No, browser setting of some sort.

Sorry, which type of settings.

- Oh, you can change it with a browser setting of some sort, I think you're saying.

- Yes, yeah.

And in the case of Apple, I think you actually go into, I believe it's some kind of a P code to, it's got to do with Safari, but once you change that, it's very quick.

So I'll have to look in to see what the ways you do it with the different browsers are, but it's not something that I could do remotely because I would basically be messing with their operating system.

And most people aren't happy with people coming in and messing with their operating system.

I know I wouldn't be.

But that has improved the speed of reaction when I hover, which is nice.

And other than that, that's about all I've got done on stuff I should be working on.

And I'm gonna continue on working on it and I'm hoping by the end of the summer, I've got the Primer up to date, and I can build a interface for newcomers coming in so that there's something to build on.

So at least a newcomer coming in has got up-to-date information, and they got that to work with, and then the ongoing work will be in the wiki, bringing that up to date and making sure the proper links are there and categories and all those kinds of things we've been doing.

But a big part of that is Ed's browser.

And Ed has been on hiatus with his laptop.

It's just embarrassing.

I didn't explain all the details in my email.

But I had my backpack with my laptop in it.

And I went to the grocery store and I bought groceries.

And I came back home and I emptied all the groceries into the refrigerator.

And then I went out on a three-hour walk through the sunny, warm streets of Dublin.

I had neglected to remove one eight-ounce brick of 100% grass-fed Irish butter.

Will you laugh.

Okay, fine.

We're laughing with you.

Nothing compared to the grief I took from the repair center, let me tell you.

The butter compressed into the vents of the laptop.

And I tried to sort of clean it out as well as I could, and I turned it on, and there was an audible "zzz" sound, and the smell of baked goods, which it turned out I found out later was the power transistors in the laptop baking.

And, you know, any authority, any respect you might have commanded with the repair center evaporates when they hear that story.

in between snorts of incredulity, they said they'd do the best they could to try to fix it, which in the end they were not able to.

So I had to order another machine, which took another week to – they spent two weeks trying or telling me they were trying, and then another week to get a new machine.

So I'm back up and running, but I haven't been for very long.

And I have, Other than that sad story, nothing new to report about the browser.

What I'm interested in, as I mentioned before, this lacuna is trying to get together once again, Bob, with your son and just show Stephen the latest and see whether he's got any additional reactions.

Most of the changes, the recent changes that have taken place were in response to his feedback.

And I'd just like to see whether we've gotten to a point where he's out of ideas or too tactful to say anything.

Either would be fine, I guess.

He's currently, I believe last time we checked on him, because he's not really checking back with us right now, he's currently in Rome with his girlfriend, and I think they're coming back in the next couple of days.

So I think it would be a push to think about next Tuesday, but maybe the Tuesday after that, we might be able to set something up, but I'll talk to him about that and see what would work.

That'd be great.

I'd appreciate that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the only feedback I've got about, I was just playing around with it again today, And I like this, you've done with the, it's funny.

Well, let me share the screen.

So I'm showing what I'm talking about, but, let's do that and share it.

There we go.

Now this is what it shows up as many on my screen.

So this sort of thing expands when you go over, which I really like actually, That's, it's giving me information when I need it, if I had a small screen, which I think is really good.

And then I come back here and then it's giving me, you know, navigation information, which is what I'm looking for there.

One thing, and it's really simple, when something's highlighted, like right now, what's highlighted is J programming.

And if I come down here, as I'm going down, that red is responding to what I'm over.

But as soon as I go back over here, it goes back to J programming because that's what it's locked on.

- Yes.

- I think it's a simple thing.

What about changing the locked on color to red.

- Oh.

- So that when you click on it, that's active, that's red.

And then when you're moving around, it's black, but you've always got this red, wherever you are, there's a red thing that's telling you where your navigation is.

- In the other lists that come up, would the locked thing also be red.

- No, they go to black.

So it's actually just the inverse, but maybe it's just me, but I think of red as something that's active.

- Oh, I see.

- That's what's active.

And when I move across, it's gonna jump back to that.

So similarly, when I say I moved across to here, and now I'm back in this, this would be black.

The red would be at the top.

That would be what would be active.

And Henry Rich would be red.

That would be what would be active.

OK.

So there's a hover color and a selection color, basically.

And when I click on it-- actually, I'm noticing now-- when I click on it, the hover is the rectangle with no outline.

And when I go back and click on it, it has an outline.

Is that correct.

I'm not even sure anymore.

I mean, that's the behavior.

Yeah.

It's a very thin outline, but that is one difference I see on the red here.

For when I drop down, this red has no outline around it.

And it might be an artifact of the the black behind the red, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I think that's probably what's going on there.

Yeah.

Maybe I shouldn't be using rectangles.

This is something Stephen can probably say more intelligent things about than I can.

Maybe I need some other hover indicator or some other selection indicator.

Maybe having two rectangles of different colors is just fundamentally confusing.

Like I could do something like reverse text for selection or reverse text for hovering, for example.

Yeah, that's another way to do it.

I mean, I guess for whatever reason, when I was playing around with it, it took me a while to figure out that when I moved off, it was suddenly jumping back to what was black.

When I'm thinking, I'm on red, right.

Yeah, I think what you're running into there is a more fundamental problem, which is this notion of the hover preview.

I don't know if that works.

I need Stephen to comment on that.

I like it just for the speed.

I'm a huge speed fan.

That was one of the things that I thought was really important about this interface, was just the sheer velocity, the, I call it, user bandwidth, the amount of new material that shows up in response to very small interactions.

But it may just be fundamentally too confusing.

I'm simply not sure about that.

I just don't know.

And I think Dave's seen this before, but I'm not sure whether Art has.

But the speed is quite amazing because-- well, for instance, I'm going over the different-- well, I guess I'm in programming now, so I'll click on that.

Then I can go up here and go between the different dates.

>> Those don't hover select anymore.

>> The only hover preview is the left-most table of contents list.

>> Yeah, and I guess it'll be a good question whether that's a lot faster than going down and then having to actually click on something.

>> Now you're in database.

I don't know if that interaction can be made to work in a way that's immediately apparent and intuitive.

And that's probably the main thing that I'm hoping Stephen will be willing to comment on.

Yeah.

It's something, when you click, that's something that we send some kind of a signal that that's what you're on now.

And you can see other things this way, but you won't actually be going to them until you click on it.

>> Click on them.

And there's not much of a visual indication that you're hovering versus locked on a particular item.

And that may be a way to fix it is to have a, I don't know, some sort of gray cloud, sort of a cloudiness over the hovered stuff versus clarity for the selected stuff.

I just don't know.

Yeah, and actually, that was something I was just about to suggest, is it possible, when you're on something like this and it's selected, this would be dark black.

This would be dark black.

And this would be full-- wouldn't be grayed out.

But if you go to here, all these would be grayed.

Yeah.

And then that way you'd know when you're floating around.

And as soon as you click on it, you would go to black.

Everything would go back up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you could certainly-- yeah, I could do that.

I can't do it for the right half of the screen because that's the browser.

But I can do it for the left half.

Yeah, and I don't think it's so important for the browser because you're looking at the screen at that point.

But when you're doing your navigation, I think that's when you want to know what you're hovering and what you're actually going to be seeing.

- Yeah.

- I don't know, it's so close.

(laughing) Well, I think it is, but Stephen may have other ideas.

- I've been staring at it so long that I don't trust my own intuitions anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is why I like hearing you explore possibilities.

And with all due respect to you, we'll be even more interested in hearing Stephen's reaction.

No, I'm absolutely more interested in Stephen's reaction.

His breadth of experience exceeds mine, so no doubt about that.

Both of us.

Yeah.

But anyway, that is the browser.

And I think I've said it before, this is actually changing the way I look at the wiki because the interaction with the wiki changes when you can move around this quickly.

What we were looking at before was to work a lot about categories and structure.

And what this has proved is that if you've got a quick enough access to information, categories and structure aren't as important because you can back up so quickly and go to a different spot if you think you're in the wrong area.

- You know, I think there may be nuance there, Bob.

I'm not sure you can make a categorical statement like that.

I think organization, categorization are still absolutely crucial to get right.

This is a sort of a nice layer on top of good categorization.

you can move around more rapidly.

But if the categorization is bad, I don't think there's a user interface that can save you.

No, I agree.

I guess-- and I should be more precise-- I think the issue we were looking at is we were trying to do navigation by categorization.

And I think this is more appropriately navigation by interface.

And it does rely on categorization.

And the categorization at this point I don't think is great.

It's a first pass, but it will improve.

And it's relatively easy to improve just by going into whatever pages you want to either add a category to or subtract categories from.

And we can even go in and change the category tree itself if that's required, but that's a bit more work because when you change a tree, you change everything from the root off and everything's kind of got to be brought up to speed as you do that kind of a thing.

But so it's less likely we'll move the tree around, but I think we'll absolutely be moving different pages into different categories so that they're more appropriate.

- Right.

- But I just think the navigation by interfaces much better way to do it.

And that's where we are now.

And I haven't seen Raul yet.

I don't think Raul is going to be joining us, Bob.

He sent me an email saying that he was off by a day in his dates, and he's actually in South Carolina now.

Oh, right.

And then he said, but I think I'm going to miss the beginning of the meeting.

But I might be back in towards the end.

It depends when I get back.

And so he may or may not be in.

And I guess that sounds like maybe next week, depending on what his schedule is, I think he's still in South Carolina.

He'll probably be here unless he's doing something else.

Well, I, this is Bob, as you know, this is midnight.

Yeah, for me.

So I actually, I it's sort of I tend to go to bed fairly early so it's a problem for me to stay conscious.

Okay, so I'll have a quick question though to Dave or Arthur just to get any responses they have before we wrap this up.

And your question is.

Well, A, is there what are your reactions to this.

Have you worked with it.

Do you have any input to it at this point, what you like or what you don't like.

And then B, is there anything else you want to bring up while we're on the call.

Well, speaking of dead computers, my windows computer made two loud banging noises and then smelled like smoke.

Oh, so I guess I need to fix that and see if I get this code working on that machine or some Windows machine.

I haven't gotten it working yet on this Linux machine.

Okay, so my comment is we can diddle with it for a long time, but maybe it's time to push it out and sell it.

Well, I'll let Ed fill in his answer, but my answer to that is I agree with you, but I think the idea is to get one more pass by Stephen to see whether he feels we're on the right track.

And if we are, then we probably are ready to put it out to more general beta testing and see how people react to it.

I would agree.

And I wasn't trying to complain about staying up late.

I don't mind doing that.

I was just going to mention because since we're waiting for Raoul, I actually, it turns out that there are a few jazz clubs in Dublin that I didn't know about, but I went to one tonight and there was, there is wonderful Irish jazz musicians who knew, but they exist.

It was Guinness and jazz and a little club, but it was just, I had my Tom Waits t-shirt.

It was great.

So I have now discovered how to attend these meetings in a very pleasant way, which is to go out to a jazz club beforehand and then allow enough time to sober up before.

Well, then the other challenge I see in that is that we may have limited time working with you at this point because you may be diverted to much more pleasant activities.

Right.

You know, retirement is just a problem, Bob.

I am not taking to it at all.

And anything that will distract me with something resembling work is always welcome.

Well, you may have come up with a different solution with Guinness and jazz and I'm guessing Irish drums and.

.

.

It'll only go so far, you know, it'll only take up so many hours in a week.

I really need something more substantive.

But yeah, I concur.

I think we're getting close to the point where it should be pushed out.

I'm a little concerned, Dave, that it's still not working on your Linux box.

Raul also uses a Linux box, although I know Linux is a many-headed beast, and had problems initially that we overcame.

So I'd be very curious as to what problems you're having, if they can be described, in an effort to overcome them, because there is a fair amount of Linux out there.

I've got a lot more time and you deserve a lot more of it.

I'm going to spend a little while trying to parse that.

It means I'll try harder on your behalf.

You're extraordinarily kind.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Well, I got-- And if we do end up pushing it out, we're probably going to spend some time not so much working on interfaces, but probably trying to work out technical things, how different systems react to it.

Yeah.

There'll be a whole additional effort involved in broadening the audience, the number of different systems that it runs on.

We've seen Mac and we've seen Linux work.

I'm not even sure about Windows, to be honest.

I don't have a Windows box I can use, unfortunately, here.

Well, I think Eric and Chris and I think Bill all use Windows box.

Well, actually, they're probably using Linux as well.

But I think they have Windows boxes that they use as well.

So any comments Art at this point before we log off.

- It looks like you've been doing good things and be whatever to follow all the different modes of operation that you are trying to provide.

Thank you.

>> It's a big and confusing thing.

I think some of that comes from the sheer richness of the underlying data.

There's just an awful lot that has accreted, sounds pejorative, I don't mean it to sound pejorative, that has accreted over the decades and it's all still there.

And it was the goal of the interface to make it all available at once, not to hide anything, no matter how old or out of date it might be.

And the result of that is that it's, it sort of makes clear just how much there is.

And that is kind of overwhelming, I think.

I actually have some reservations about giving a new person access to this.

I mean, I obviously wouldn't try to hide it from anybody, but it may not be the best entry point to the J, the world of J.

- Yeah, I think sort of along those lines, that was the idea of having a specific category that was set up for beginners.

So they would get access to the interface, but what they would be shown by the interface would be a restricted subset of all the information.

That is a thought.

It would be interesting to try to get agreement from the community on what that restricted subset should be, I suspect.

Well, I think it's probably along the lines of the teach someone to fish idea, is that if you get them in and you show them how to get around things, then you can let them loose in the wider community.

And they'll just, there'll be a lot of information, but at least they'll have their bearings.

- That sounds like you're arguing for giving them access to everything.

- I'm arguing that they could have access to everything if they go through, if they choose to go through reference.

But if they go to newcomers, they'll have stuff that's specifically working with newcomers.

- No, an explicit newcomers category, obviously, would be a good thing.

and should probably be called out in extra big letters and flashing in its own color and so on.

Yeah, see, that's just not sufficiently prominent, I would argue.

- Gotcha.

And then that's actually where we're in that ether world between when we were doing this by graphic here, which was the structural part, and what we're doing now with the browser.

So you're right, there may be things we can do with this to make it correspond more to these main headings.

Although you have broken them out.

The main headings are in bold, and the subheadings are-- But I think it's possible that newcomers should be called out more prominently.

Right now, New Vogue is the most prominent thing.

It occurs on the top, it's folded, and that is not a place to start, right.

- No.

But what you could do, is it possible to put newcomers up above NuVoc.

- Sure.

- Yeah, in which case, what we could do is organize it slightly differently.

NuVoc might be the top thing in reference.

Well, it is right now.

But that might be, you get to reference, you've got NuVoc.

You go to newcomers.

I think that's what I've done at this point, is introduction to New Vogue, which right now is just, I've just loaded up anything that I think is useful, but that'll get winnowed down.

So the things that you're looking at would pertain to it.

I think a lot of this is actually the ancillary pages because I find them really useful.

And New Voke itself is more of a reference.

The ancillary pages have much better explanations.

But not all the auxiliary pages are for newcomers.

This is not-- this is NuVoc, right.

I don't know if these are ancillary pages.

Well, I guess I'm looking at-- oops.

So introduction to New Voke.

I think that, yeah.

You know, it's not, I think, I think if you go back on the left table of contents, all the way back up to New Vogue, aren't the ancillary pages broken out.

They are, you've broken them out for sure.

Yeah.

That's a better way to get to the ancillary pages, I would argue.

And this is also a better way to to look at New Vogue.

If you hover New Vogue, that's actually the New Vogue graphic, which I think is the right way to get access to that.

Just getting a list of 2NuVoc pages is not nearly as good.

No, and when you actually go to the NuVoc page, you see this.

And I think, one, in some sense an error, you've got all these references up here.

The ancillary pages follow it.

And I think actually they should be probably more prominent, but that's a discussion with the New NuVoc guys.

- Yeah.

I don't know.

I guess what I would say is that anything that is of interest to newcomers or is frequently referenced, go in the top of the leftmost table of contents list.

NuVoc ancillary pages, newcomers, And I'm not sure what else.

WD reference, probably.

Yeah, I think after that, though, you got-- maybe move newcomers up above that.

But I think the rest of it actually fits fairly well the way it's done now.

And we talked about developers and then reference being different again.

I don't know, as I use it, which I do a little bit, I mean, I'm not, I'm kind of in a very narrow place right now where mostly I don't need to look things up, which means I'm not expanding my horizons much, which is a separate problem.

- Jazz, come on.

- I find myself a little irritated that WD and GL2 couple of other things are not immediately apparent.

I go digging for them.

And often I just don't because those are actually available in the IDE more conveniently than they are here.

That's a presentation problem/organization problem, if it's a problem at all.

That's just me.

No, I agree with you.

I think it would come down to that the way developers is organized is basically along the lines of being specialized, but it would make sense that if you go to interfaces, that there are some interfaces that just are not, you know, used as much, and there are others that are used a lot, such as the IDEs.

I think I should have WD in here.

If I don't, then that's a mistake.

That should definitely be minimally at this level.

But I think directly under developers would be WD because it's used in several areas.

Yeah.

And maybe the answer is I should make use of bookmarks.

I'm not doing that.

And bookmarks now migrate as you get new versions of the database.

So there's no reason not to use them.

Yeah, and I find them super powerful.

And the only thing I'll say is that you don't really want them to make up for organizational mistakes.

And they can.

But-- That too.

Yeah, that's a good point.

But to the extent that the organization doesn't reflect your interests and preoccupations, you can mitigate that problem with bookmarks.

Well, and we have talked about this before.

There's nothing keeping somebody or keeping someone from creating their own category tree.

You can do that.

Yeah.

I'm not sure it's a power user move, but there's nothing.

I mean, let a thousand flowers bloom.

Didn't really work for Mao either.

Um, I having lots of organizations.

It doesn't strike me as a good situation.

I guess what I'm thinking of is if you were, you were actually in an organization that was using J, it might be beneficial to have your own category tree that people can refer to, that takes them to the specific areas you think are most useful to them, but might not be useful to the general user.

>> I think bookmarks could probably handle that.

>> Yeah, that's true.

>> Because for any given organization, the percentage of J information that they need is going to be tiny as compared to the entire corpus that we've collected over the decades.

And that would fit nicely into bookmarks.

Yeah, I retract.

I've just been lazy, that's all.

So, I retract my whining.

I will simply put bookmarks.

I will use bookmarks.

Well, I'm just wondering, and just to toss this out here, what about repopulating bookmarks with some specific things like WD.

Well, that's just an end run around the organization, right.

It is, but it.

.

.

yeah, it is.

I mean, ideally, we improve the organization, don't have to do that.

But I also think that it might encourage people to use bookmarks when they see that kind of popular things show up.

I mean, it might be as simple as putting Nuvok in a bookmark.

Yeah.

You just, you know, that's the sort of thing you can put in there, and you can add it, and bang, you've got that information.

I don't know.

I just think to encourage somebody to use it, you might want to show a few things that are in there that are really useful.

And then you can say, well, and you can add your own stuff, and then they're away.

It's a thought.

Yeah.

It's another thing to run by Stephen, I think.

Yep.

Well, I generate the thoughts.

I'm not saying they're right.

No, I understand.

The first rule of having a good idea is to have a lot of ideas.

Absolutely.

And then the best route to executing them well is to be able to say, "No, that's a bad idea.

" At some point, you do have to kind of narrow the funnel.

It's true.

- Yeah, you learn to say no.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

Anyway, I think that's about it.

Thanks so much for stopping by and I'm glad your laptop is resolved and it didn't turn into just a big muffin.

Well, I guess the laptop did.

- It did.

I had to buy a new one.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Were you under Apple care or is it just like.

- Well, you know, Apple hardware is so expensive that I always buy it used.

- Ah, okay.

So I had the one year Amazon guarantee.

And I just psychologically, emotionally could not deal with the thought of explaining to Amazon what had happened, having to laugh in my face and say no.

- Yeah.

- I didn't even try.

- Although I guess, do you now have one of the more updated M1 Macs or laptops.

- No, I actually got an even older one.

Apple hardware is just outrageously expensive and the improvements of the last five years are of no interest to me whatsoever.

So I spent very little money on this machine, which is already showing, actually showing signs of senility but it's from 2019, I think.

So it's Intel hardware.

- Well, I'm on a Mac right now from 2018 And my laptop, I think, is from 2015.

So-- Woo.

All right.

Yeah.

Do you buy them new.

I'm just curious.

I do buy them new.

And then I use them-- I run them hard and put them away wet.

Yeah.

[LAUGHTER] I get every ounce out of my investment.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, as always, thanks so much for participating.

and I'll get back in touch with you, Ed, about Stephen's schedule when he gets back in the country.

And we'll go from there.

- Bob, you're very kind.

Thanks so much.

Take care, everybody.